Shawna Potter

SHOW NOTES:

If you’re looking to understand addiction more, help yourself, or help someone in your life, this is a must-listen!

Host Shawna speaks to creator of the Drunk Punk Recovery program, Tim Spock, while he serves out a 15 year sentence in a correctional facility. They talk about how his zines found (and affected) Shawna, prison life, how religious overtones can turn people off from help, the brain chemistry of addiction, elements that make addiction programs work, harm reduction, and so much more. As we head into the holidays, this might be really timely for folks who are facing addiction-related struggles internally or externally.

The official sponsors of this episode are First Defense Krav Maga, and Pupcakes and Pawstries, where you can use promo code waronwomen15 to get 15% off your next order.

Episode transcripts, important links, and ways to support Shawna and this podcast can be found at shawnapotter.com. Everything War On Women can be found at linktr.ee/waronwomen. For bonus episodes, behind the scenes content, and the chance to make special requests and get shoutouts on air, become a patron at patreon.com/shawnapotter.

Thanks to Brooks Harlan for chopping up War On Women’s song “Her?” to create the podcast theme song. Main podcast photo: Justin Borucki. 

SPONSOR LINKS: 

https://www.firstdefensekravmaga.com/

https://pupcakesandpawstries.com/

SHOW LINKS

Write to Tim via snail mail:

Tim Spock #A633757

2500 South Avon-Belden Road Grafton OH 44044 

Or email timspock77@gmail.com and his friend will pass along your message.

Find him on Instagram @drunkpunkrecovery

The writings of Tim Spock: https://microcosmpublishing.com/catalog/artist/tim-spock/

Shawna in Razorcake (Tim was not published after all): https://razorcake.org/razorcake-121-featuring-obnox-shawna-potter-max-ward-jenelle-hessig-and-how-punk-saved-belfast/

Prison to pamphlet series: https://microcosmpublishing.com/catalog/?subject=prison-to-pamphlet

The article he mentions: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2014/08/14/we-cant-afford-to-ignore-drug-addiction-in-prison/

https://projectwhitebutterfly.org/

https://www.thesidewalkproject.org/

Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration: https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline

Recovery Dharma: Using Buddhist Practices and Principles to Recover from Addiction: https://recoverydharma.org/

TRANSCRIPT

Welcome to But Her Lyrics...the show where we delve into the political lyrics of songs I like, songs I wrote, or topics that I think should be a song. I’m Shawna Potter, singer and lyricist for War On Women - and your host. 

My guest today is Tim Spock, author of the Drunk Punk series about Getting Sober Without Gods or Masters. What’s unique about this episode is that Tim spoke to me from the correctional facility where he is serving a 15 year sentence for two counts of vehicular homicide. His first potential release date is in January of 2025. I promise we get into all the details of his story in the interview, but we also talk about addiction, harm reduction, transformative justice vs. punitive, who is considered disposable in our society -- all things that have weighed heavily on my mind the last few years. It’s a perfect But Her Lyrics episode bc I think one emerging theme of the new WOW album is addiction and how …no matter how hard you want to work on a relationship, you can’t if the other person’s addiction is getting in the way and they are unwilling to work on themselves. Not to mention all the other things that can come from addiction like unfortunately, in Tim’s case, a tragic loss of life. 

In order to conduct this interview I had to download an app that lets me record phone calls. So it doesn’t sound …great, but it is a great conversation. Now I don’t know how legal that is, recording a phone call from a prison, so please don’t snitch on me? I think this is the first time in my life I have spoken to someone while they were incarcerated, but I know it’s not an uncommon experience here in the States. [According to the latest available data at the World Prison Brief the United States has the sixth highest incarceration rate in the world. According to other sources, we’re number 1! So, clearly, it affects a lot of people ] Just like you don’t have to be a punk or in a touring band to have been touched by addiction in some way. [Almost 21 million Americans have at least one addiction, yet only 10% of them receive treatment.] Whether you’re suffering from it personally, or have seen friends or family win or lose their struggle with it, I feel anyone listening can get something out of this conversation. And if you tensed up and wanted to turn this off at the revelation that my guest today is responsible for the death of two people, I get it, but please consider sticking around to hear what he has to say.

PATREON

I want to shout out our official sponsors, First Defense Krav Maga and Pupcakes and Pawstries. Links in the show notes, check them out. And big thanks to Melissa, Meatheads Stephan, Zacharie, Byron, Isaias, and Hunters Andris, Tim, Kevin, and Lauren. This podcast would not exist without you, that’s for sure, and your support has enabled me to have some conversations that I find extremely valuable and productive. So thank you!

Did you all know that I am finally on Cameo? I look forward to all your weird, funny, and sweet requests to send a personalized message to a friend or loved one, or frenemy, or whatever! Find me by searching my name or going directly to my page at cameo.com/shawnapotterwow

Ok, here’s my conversation with Tim Spock, author of zines like Drunk Punk: Getting Sober Without Gods or Masters. He’s been in prison since 2012 and he now leads a recovery program on the inside to help other prisoners who want to get sober. I wanted to interview him because I think his zines fill a gap for people turned off by group meetings or religion when it comes to seeking help and I think any time we can remove a hurdle to getting help, that’s a good thing.

[INTERVIEW please excuse any errors, this transcript has been auto-generated]

hello this is a free call from

Tim an inmate at The graft and Correctional Institution to accept this free call press zero to refuse this free call hang up or press

one this call is from a DRC correctional facility and is subject to monitoring and recording utilization of an unapproved application and three-way calls to communicate are strictly prohibited and a violation of DRC policy thank you for using GTL thank you for using GTL hi Tim Spock thank you for joining me on the podcast introduce yourself everyone hi uh my name is uh Tim Spock I uh am an inmate in Ohio that is uh working on a program of recovery and trying to help some people so yeah yeah now is this call costing you money yeah but I mean I think it's 2.9 cents a minute so it's not like a big deal okay okay all right yeah um um so I can't recall did so microcosm is who published has published usines um yes they they sent me a drunk pun Punk getting sober without gods or Masters and then the drunk Punk recovery like or the workbook um did did they send these to me on their own or did you request that they send them to me they were kind of a surprise in the mail one day I think I I actually uh throughout like certain things that I was reading I I read an interview with you or about you in a razor cake magazine and uh I got uh really interested in the things that you were discussing it was basically uh about your book making spaces safer and so I kind of accumulated a uh mailing list if you will I probably have about 60 or or 70 people and uh just people that I that I you know am interested in for one reason or another whether it's the same topic or they have other topics that I respect or something like that and I was just it wanting to get this message out to as many people as uh possible so yeah you just happened to fall into that category and yeah well I'm so grateful because it kind of showed up in my life at an interesting time um where I was sort of dealing with an alcoholic in my life uh more regularly than I am now um and so it it's like it wasn't you know um I don't as far as I know have an addiction problem but but like it was kind of helpful to sort of understand the mindset of someone that is addicted a little bit better you know um so thank you first of all thank you for that no problem at all no problem at all um so while in prison you've written multiple zenes uh all about helping people get sober without out a 12-step program um maybe we should just talk about how how did all of this begin why are you in prison yeah why are you writing scenes okay um well I think I had uh a pretty average uh upbringing uh basically middle class I lived in a suburb of Cleveland and uh I ba basically I didn't realize it at the time it was happening but I've been struggling with my using an addiction probably since I was like 15 years old that was the first time I got in trouble with the law I was on probation most of my adult life through various uh charges like public Inox or assault or OVI which is operating a vehicle while impaired or things things things of that nature I actually I had a a a not a felony charge but I had a child endangerment charge which I believe I mentioned in one of my scenes but uh it it was all every time every time I drank I didn't get in trouble but every time I got in trouble I I drugs and alcohol were involved and I never made the connection and being on probation you're kind of forced into treatment and um I've pretty much been a a atheist a good majority of my uh from my teenage years so the whole the whole spirituality aspect that 12 steps starts off with and uh I don't want to uh say anything out of term but their whole like veiled religious uh vibe that I got from the from the program I I wasn't going to ever adapt to you know those those ways of getting better yeah and so basically I just kind of like floundered and you know I don't even want to say did the best that I could but I just kind of existed and went on um I had a horribly uh skewed view of what it meant to be punk rock if you will you know I thought like you were supposed to use drugs and get messed up and you know not not care about anything it was it was it was just yeah it was it was not uh it was my interpretation at the time and uh yeah yeah it didn't serve well because I believe that uh the drugs and alcohol don't make us addicts I believe that we're addicts and the drugs and alcohol bring it out of us so for somebody like me being put on a scenario where you're touring with bands or going to shows every night and stuff like that it's just a recipe for uh I don't want to say disaster but yeah that's that's what it is so I had H several attempts where I decide I Tred to have like a like a what I would consider a normal life which just meant not getting arrested and uh didn't ever really work and eventually one day um I was uh driving drunk and I drove into a crowd of people and uh two of them were killed and there was one person that was seriously injured and that was the start of my incarceration um it took me a few years to wrap my head around what I had done I was blaming and and denial and stuff like that and still planning on going back to doing what I was doing before I came into prison uh after this time I was sentenced to 15 years and uh it wasn't until I had some realizations through being in treatment and talking with other people that uh I I had to do something with my life I had to take back control of my life or else I was going to get more of the same and continue hurting myself in other people and being taken away from people I care about and taking other people away so um I did something that was UN unheard of in my life and I started to be vocal about my issues and my problems and stuff like that and asking for help which I think that's one of the foundations of anybody getting better is asking for help and uh that didn't happen until you were already in prison for a while yeah I was actually my I was always this is GNA sound kind of corny but I was always a good inmate I've been sober I haven't even smoked a cigarette since I've been off of of the streets and uh but I I still wasn't doing anything to better better my life and when I say better my life I don't mean improve my situation I just mean becoming a better person uh living the ideals that I claimed that I that I had you know like I I believe I always had a good sense of what's right and what's wrong and what's just but I wasn't living the way that I thought that I was and so it was after I was in a a group and I realized that I was no better than these people that I looked I don't want to say looked down upon but I didn't I didn't feel like I was an inmate because I had never you know robbed anybody or done anything like that and what I was doing at I didn't think that it was anything out of the ordinary because it's what everybody else that I knew was doing but I was getting different results from it so once I was asking around for help I think I it's it's it's kind of funny because the more the the louder you get uh the more answers you get sometimes and and the more help that's available to you and it turns out that not everybody that works for the Department of Correction is out to get you and uh yeah a couple a couple of counselors actually took the time and printed me up some information about uh you know agnostic 12 steps and recovery without spirituality and stuff like that and I had never heard anything like that before um so I got really I got really into that and then um I I started doing things differently and I would still do the AA and and NA meetings and stuff but I would meet up with other people and talk about other people or talk with other people that shared my you know skepticism about this the the spirituality and not knowing the connection and wanting to know why I screwed up because I didn't think that I was spiritually lacking or morally lacking I I I think that I had a problem and if everybody's calling addiction a disease why don't we treat it more like a disease you know you wouldn't ever have high blood pressure and have your doctor say well you need to you know turn your life over to a higher

power yeah so I started to think that I couldn't be the only person like this and as it turned out it wasn't so it sounds like you you you realized that there were other options out there than just the 12 step that everyone knows about um but didn't how did you turn that into your own recovery program like in your in drunk punk you basically have like a 10-step thing um that you come up with and so like how how did you think I'm going to do my own version of this okay well yeah there is a lot of stuff that I learned like for some reason uh when I started to want to get better um I took things less less personally like when I would be in an AA meeting as soon as they started talking about God or people telling me that I had to do it this way or something like that I would I normally I would tune it out but um once I wanted to start to get better I was more open to suggestion so I was able to take things from some groups and some meetings that I actually do believe in you know and uh then I decided to put it all together there's an old like cliche that people say like you know take chew the meat and spit out the bones or something and that's kind of like the approach that I did to a lot of recovery programs I took the stuff that made sense to me that I liked because first and foremost no no recovery program is gonna do you any good unless you're able to actually do it you know if I'm not getting anything from what I'm getting and if I dread going to meetings and talking to people and stuff like that I'm not going to continue to do it so once I started to do that I felt like I had to write it down H at first I I actually submitted it to Razer cake magazine as asle and they said that they were interested in it but they couldn't guarantee that it would be in the print version but they might put it online well I don't really have on online access so I don't know if it ever did make it online or not I'll look it up I'll I'll look it up and put it in the show notes yeah so I'm not I'm not sure if it ever did and it was just like and you know I have limited uh resources while I'm incarcerated and it was like a handwritten three-page thing and that's all it was I mailed it into Razer cake and Daryl got back to me and said you know do you have somebody that could submit this to us here's the formats and stuff like that and I had my brother-in-law do it but I never heard anything from it and then uh reading different and different Publications and and stuff like that uh I did know the proprietor of uh microcosm he actually I actually grew up with him in the Cleveland Scene he had moved to Portland and I hadn't uh heard from him or even thought of him in probably like 20 years or so and so uh I mailed it out to him and I said Hey Joe um I don't know if you could use this I know it's not like enough to stand alone but if you want want to throw this into a project that you have or anything like that you know go go right ahead and do it and he got back to me and he wanted to turn it into a Zen so they assigned an editor and I would I would write stuff and mail it to microcosm and then they would edit it and type it out and ask questions like you know what were you experiencing in this moment you know can you go deeper of what was going on in your life at this point and stuff and I'd write in and we would do a back and forth Thea uh male like regular stale stale male yeah and uh so it was it was a whole process I actually switched institutions that I was in like about halfway through it too and it came out in uh March of 2019 it was it the first drunk Punk was was put out and I was thrilled about it so and then and isn't that what started their prison to pamphlet series yes that was that was the first that that was the first India series and um in the beginning there Joe wrote wrote an editor's note in the beginning of myene I'm not sure if it was in any of the other ones but it said you know they that some you know there's things to learn from everybody in life and especially in the criminal justice system if we shut shut out and uh judge everybody on the worst moment of their life you know then we're missing out on some you know you know truly talented and maybe some caring people that could help other people you know and I I don't ever want to like put myself up there and say the old you know well if you could just learn from my mistakes or whatever because not everybody learns that way you know so it was really cool that he he got that started and there was actually another person that I was incarcerated with that put out a Zan too through the presented pamphlet series too I thought that was really cool too yeah I I mean it definitely mentions in that introduction you know that maybe the idea of publishing someone's story who's in prison for killing two people like that might not sit well with a lot of people no and to be 100% honest with you shaa like it's it's I never want to put myself out there I hope that it doesn't come across like this but I never want to put myself out there as I'm a victim in any way because of the situations that I that I've caused but it is something that I deal with like on a daily basis like I I I have trouble uh taking credit for the things that I am proud of doing and I have trouble uh you know and I've met I've met a little bit of of a resistance from other people that I've sent my work out to and and and stuff like that like people thinking that I'm profiting off of what I've done or um I'm just doing it to make myself not look like a bad person or something and and that's fine because on the other side of the coin if if I was from the outside looking in at at what was going on I might have a different opinion as well you know so I do I do understand the opposition but at the same time I do think that there's something to be learn from uh people not everybody has to experience a catastrophe or a tragedy to learn a lesson yeah no and I think I think um especially as punks and and just you know touring musicians um and and but not even just that like there's addiction almost every family you know like it's a really common thing in people's lives whether they're personally affected by it or someone they know is affected by it so I do think any way that we can get people to get help if they need it is is is good you know and as an as an atheist as a fellow atheist your series really speaks to me um I do find that I'm able to ignore the god stuff when I attend uh my group meetings for the friends and family of Alcoholics um I kind of use the universe in general as my higher power um but uh I'm also older like I don't know if I tried it when I was 20 if I could have standed it just on principle yeah and I and I also don't have any trauma around religion or anything so I can see how for some folks it's a non-starter so do do you think I mean I just I don't know can you speak to just like the fact that if there's any barrier at all to getting help well then then then less people are going to get help or what is it about AA like you just couldn't get past the god stuff like was there ever a world where you could have gotten past it I guess I don't I don't I don't don't think that there that that ever existed because um I like to say like you know why why do some people not like strawberry ice cream it's just it's just because you you don't you know so like you could you I don't know if that uh that makes sense to you but that's the way that's the way that I that I would look at it and uh like that just never was going to make sense into my mind and the whole um do you think it was an excuse to not get help see I I have I have thought of that and I think that uh I wish I could have had these these these Revelations you know a long a long time ago but uh I don't think that it was an excuse but I do think that there were things that I that I could have done like there's no reason that what I'm experiencing I couldn't have experienced it before like I was just so kind of kind of like you said like when you're when you're a younger person I'm I'm 40 I'm I'm 46 years old now so when you're a younger person you kind of have that you know I don't have to worry about it I'm Invincible you know I'm smarter than everybody else you know you can't tell me what to do kind well not everybody but that's the kind of attitude that I that I have and uh I I use that um because because that's a big thing for for for 12 steps too like they say you know if you're if this program's not working for you then you're just not working it you know and I I don't think that my program of recovery has anything to do with like an easier softer way or anything like that because it does involve work and uh a lot of the principles that I that I use are the same ones that were in the 12 steps you know um not to you know say I'm ripping them off or anything like that but it's it's not a bad way to live your life if that's if that's what makes sense to you it just didn't make sense to me the way that it was presented to me and there's other things going on now that I came involved with like like peer support and like medically assisted treatment and stuff like that that I'm just I'm in love with basically and I think that if recovery was presented differently to me then I may have been more open to receiving it if that makes any sense yeah I mean really just knowing that there's more than one option might have made it easier because I think you're right like it for a really long time it seemed like there was only one option and if it if it was a turn off right away then you just weren't going to get help so I love that drunk Punk is your full story right as you as you see it it has your 10 steps you created but then you have this drunk Punk workbook that is full of leading questions so people can like really think about why there addiction you know started what feeds it what keeps it going um and like ways they can avoid starting it again um so I love that you are acknowledging that people need to understand that stuff all the stuff that you're trying to drown you know that you have to face it in order to have a real chance at getting sober so can you talk more about that oh yeah yeah I would love to uh the the the biggest part the way that my brain works is if I want to figure something out I'm going to find out as much as I can about it you know like I'm not the kind of person where if I wanted to you know rebuild a car engine I would just get my tools out and just start tinkering like I would go and research you know like I mean that just makes sense to me and so when people were telling me like there's there's keywords in like 12 steps about like the phenomenon of craving and stuff like that where despite all the consequences we suffer we still go and do the same thing I'm like well that's not good enough just saying like you know we don't know why we do that you know so then I started researching about the brain chemistry and the dopamine reward system and we train our brain to expect certain things and stuff like that and then that started to make sense to me because once you know why you're doing something then you could try and figure out a way to stop doing it or to combat those those things and that's just how that made sense to me so just like there's no end to the reasons why we initially started our our use I believe there should be no end to the the ways that we go about treating it because if we don't do uh Patient First treatments if we just have if we just offer one blanket explanation for everything that's not going to apply to everybody and so that's that's what I try and do because I I know that the way that I do recovery isn't going to make sense for everybody and it's not going to I'm not everybody's cup of tea but that doesn't mean that there aren't people out there that I can't reach you know yes that's that that was the the goal behind that and the relatability and the addicts helping other addict aspect like that was one of the things that I like from Mutual support groups and there was a study that I read I I wish I had the uh notes and with me I'm not exactly sure where it was conducted or how long ago it was but somebody did research on the aspects that made the 12 Steps successful when they were successful and they found four four key elements that were not exclusive to 12 steps that were in 12 steps and there's hope motivation social support and distraction so you could if you could find those four elements in anything it could be starting a yoga class at the community center and you know just hanging around other people that have similar goals that you do like that's recovery to me right yeah so it doesn't doesn't require you submitting or turning your will over or anything like that the I'm sorry I tend to think that I start to ramble but the definition the definition of recovery by the Ohio mental health and Addiction Services like the organization that provides treatment not just in prisons but like out there in the community and stuff like that the definition of recovery doesn't mention drugs or alcohol in it at all but it does mention living a self-directed life and reaching your full potential and I that's what recovery means to me you know so I mean from my experience as someone affected by alcoholics uh quitting alcohol is not not enough you know like just just not drinking or not doing drugs it's like that is that's like Step Zero and if there's no other work done then like yeah they still they're still not their full selves basically I I agree 100% with that there's a group that I was in around the time that drunk part drunk Punk was coming out and it was called a Therapeutic Community it's a it's not exclusive to this prison system they're out there in in uh society and stuff like that it's but they said that Therapeutic Community isn't trying to change you it's just trying to take who you are and make them better and I think that's what that's more towards the kind of recovery that I'm down with like that's what I want my my program to Foster you know um how much longer do you think the state will let us talk on this phone call um well the calls are 30 minutes I have a couple more questions and i' would love it if you would call me again so that we would have a little time and not get cut off in the middle of what you're saying do you want me to call you right back or do you want you know to are you gonna yeah call me right back okay yeah that's no problem then Sean I'll call you back in a couple seconds okay awesome bye all right bye we're back on our second call because your phone calls are only owed to be 30 minutes at a time um actually uh 10 minutes when I first was uh locked up really so things have got they were $5 and 10 minutes wow so yeah things have gotten a lot uh better wow um actually can you give us like a little glimpse into what your daytoday is like okay and how long have you been in prison I've been in prison since 2012 a little bit over uh 11 years and uh the place that I'm in now it's actually a low security it's actually called a reintegration center um and what it is it's to give you an example I'm looking around right now it's it's like a have you seen those like prefab like sheds that they sell that are like airplane hangers and stuff like that yeah I think I think I know what you're talking about all right so imagine one of those and then just imagine like rows of metal bunk beds in there and that's and that's what this is um the place that I was before that I was uh at for three years was uh it was actually cells and that's that's a little bit better I actually preferred that because you get a little bit more privacy when you're in a Cell this open dorm like last night was Monday Night Football so if there's 200 people up watching football like you're not sleeping no matter what so there that kind of like most people have thankfully most people will have no idea what it's like to share your living environment with 200 other people but that's the reality of this right now I think Ohio is number four in the number of uh inmates that that it has it's either four or six but it's defin wow yeah so um I I I wake up pretty early um and you know I I exercise in the morning which that's another cool thing I don't think ever would have started without recovery was you know now I find that I like jogging and doing things like that but uh and then I I I go into work I work at Recovery Services here which is you uh we handle all the drug treatment and um I organize groups and Lead groups um I actually do drunk Punk here as a group but it's called recovery for all because the word punk in prison means something entirely different yeah so it would be a lot more interesting of a class but uh so I do that um I I answer people's questions about how to get into treatment and stuff like that I'm a uh peer supporter here which means like if somebody wants you know peer support is somebody with a lived experience in in addiction that is there not to advise you or tell you what to do but just to support you and try and Lead you through recovery the best that they can so it's somebody that is in recovery that shares that experience with you that would try and you know help you the best ways that that they could um so that's basically what I do uh it's kind of like a a unpaid uh internship because it's what I hopefully it's similar to what I plan on doing when I when when I get out so I've been trying to learn more about the prison abolition movement um and trying to learn about feminist views of abolition um because I think you know there's a lot of like lefties and punks and like Progressive people that that are cool with the idea of letting people out of jail that are in on like minor drug charges or something right but when we start talking about you know sexual assault or someone being killed then it's people have a harder time uh stepping away from the carceral nature of our society you know like so I've just been thinking more about punishment versus accountability and um learning what I can trying to unlearn the stuff that Society has taught me um so I'm curious from your vantage point though you know how do you feel about those ideas uh do you think that prison is the only way you would have become sober that it was necessary and then I also kind of want to know your thoughts you know do you know if your thoughts compare to what you know of your victim's surviving family members thoughts on Justice exactly uh that's that's a really interesting uh question and I'm really glad that that you brought that up um so I I used to say uh that if it wasn't for prison I don't think that I would have gotten sober I I don't 100% agree with that now because I believe in the way that see the the funny thing is with my with my writing is that like the book that just came came out the or the Zen that just came out why do I get high I wrote it two two years ago so like I'm like a total nerd and what I kind of alluded to in our brief conversation yesterday is I do have a lot of time to get to nerd out on like things yeah so my my My Views are constantly like evolving and I do believe and there is an article that I quoted one fact from in my in my last scene from The Washington Post about how the price of incarcerating people is actually cost more than the price of prevention yeah you know doing stuff like identifying uh potential for issues and you know there's factors that are scientifically laid out that puts people more at risk for criminal activity stuff like AC uh adverse childhood experiences and stuff like that that will put somebody more at risk to becoming involved in the criminal justice system and so if we could use factors like that to identify things and then uh Target people who are more vulnerable like say I had a history of addiction in my in my family and uh my mother and father were split up and my dad was imprisoned right if we could identify such risk factors which this is gonna this might sound a little absurd but if we could identify certain risk factors then we could treat people almost preemptively or see what attention we need to bring to people as opposed to waiting for somebody to get into a situation with the criminal justice system and then try and rehabilitate them because I could throw stats out like all day how like 11% of people in prison that identify with a substance use problem receive treatment so if only 11% of the ones that need treatment are getting it then obviously what we're doing is wrong so like I started to say the way that I've been viewing things lately is everything we know about addiction and the criminal justice system is is we need to forget it need we need to forget it and we need to come up with with with with better ways with better ways to do it um I I've been uh my previous S I don't think I'm violating any confidentiality or anything but the person I shared a sell with before I came to this place he was doing uh 30 30 to life so who sets these standards of when it's okay for somebody to come back to society you know like what's going to happen after 20 what's gonna happen after 30 years that couldn't happen after 10 years you know right and so when you're explaining to somebody especially don't even try and talk to any employees of the criminal justice [Laughter] when you're trying to explain to them you know like these these like crazy Concepts about actually like helping people so that they don't come to prison and and stuff like that like the you nobody wants to hear it because although I don't blame anybody for putting me in here I I take accountability for what I've done that led me to where I'm at now I I do acknowledge that you know this is this is an industry it 100% is so they make laws and they do things that make absolutely no sense to continue it going on and it's under the guise of of of of help and safety but I don't really believe that it always is and it's just it's reactionary instead of preventative that's exactly exactly yeah point I'm trying to make do you do you know the thoughts of your uh the your victim's surviving family members around your incarceration or I I haven't personally been in contact with them um one of the families at at the time of my trial they said that they that that they forgave me and they said that um there it was the gentleman's brother and he said that his brother you know lived a great life and was you know in a in a better place now and he's with whatever was supposed to happen with him and uh the other family um the father was and had every right to be but was very uh upset and he has been on television uh in 2017 they they interviewed him they did a special on the news here in Cleveland about multiple uh OVI offenders and they chose to interview him and he said that he realized that it was a disease and he said that he forgave me now forgiving doesn't mean that he would be okay with me being free or anything like that it that he understand and it's more for him you know it's for them not for you yeah that's the biggest thing I wanted to bring that up in your in your book that I read uh that was one of the hugest things that actually helped me along with with my recovery is the whole section about apologizing really oh wow oh yeah yeah because in because in 12 steps you know I don't know know well you're kind of familiar with 12 a little bit yeah you're supposed to make amends with those that you have harmed right and it purports it in 12 steps that you're doing that to relieve your guilt and to you know free yourself from the burdens of you know what's what you've done but then in making spaces safer you brought up a great point about how your apology should be about the person that you offended and I you I'm not gonna you know even try and you know pull lines from it because you because you said it so well but it really was uh profound and I I use it a lot when I talk about apologizing um yeah I just wanted to bring that up and I because I because I do agree with you one 100% like if I'm just going around to relieve my my my guilt then you know who's that really helping but I'm sorry for the harm that I caused other people I'm sorry for what they had to go through because of me you know I think that you hold yourself accountable a lot more when you view it like that and yeah that was really cool yeah well thank you so much that's cool um is are there any uh resources that you want to share uh with anyone listening or any upcoming news uh can people follow you on socials yes yes I do have a uh Instagram page it's at drunk Punk recovery it's all lowercase I don't know if that matters or not I'm not currently on it but it's administrated by a lifelong friend that I I've had that's been very helpful that's that's the other thing that I wanted to point out too uh is that the more vocal you get about what you're doing and then the more you start to do it like people do see the good in you and um humans in general I believe are are kind and are forgiving by Nature not everybody but I believe that the majority of them are and a lot of times when you're making significant changes in your life you find out that the people that aren't along with you any longer you never needed like in the first place so the hundreds and hundreds of friends that I met like throughout the first 34 years of my life um I probably could count on both hands the people that I call a friend now and I like it this way more than I did the other way I don't know if that makes sense yeah but anyway yeah um so yeah if you anybody would like to follow me um on Instagram uh my writing is available at microcosm publishing um I also uh I have three other manuscripts that they have that you know eventually will come out um if anybody wants to contact me that's you could just find out through my social media um and other resources that I wanted to point out there if anybody in the Cleveland area need needs help there's an organization called White butterfly it's a nonprofit that was started um and what they do is they help put people in touch with Recovery Center and uh they have a number that you could call this this is the coolest thing that I ever heard sha there's that you could call that white butterfly has that if you're going to use and you're and you're alone you could call this number and somebody will stay on the phone line with you and if you become unresponsive they'll call the the par the paramedics to come and make sure that you don't overdose and die I've heard about programs like that it's great also I want to call out uh not all that familiar with it but I really dig what I do know about it a sidewalk project it's in Los Angeles yeah and they're they're a harm reduction group um I'm all about harm harm reduction right now that's that's where is because I do believe that drugs aren't going to go away and we need to keep people safe or as safe as we can and as alive as we can to give them the opportunity to get better so I and I think Stacy D from bad cop bad cop is involved with the sidewalk project so that's that's a punk connection right there exactly yeah it's it's uh it's a kind of neat because when you all these things exist but you don't like you walk around especially when you're uh using or you know self-absorbed or thinking about the wrong things all these things exist and if you don't like take the time to actually you know look around and see that they're there you're you're never going to be able to take advantage of them and I think that I think that is great I I think that that's uh where things are headed now I think that everything is even though the overdose numbers and stuff like that continue to to rise I think that we're starting to wake up and realize that we need to do something different you know the prison system in Ohio has gone up 400% in the last 40 years and that's mainly due to drugs and laws that criminalize and villain and and uh do all sorts of things to give a general perspective about uh drug users you know there's there's there's websites and little you know magazines you could pick up at the convenience stores that publish mug shots you know oh wow what to like to like make fun of people like why do we need that why do we need people to have help uh having pre-formed opinions about you know the people that we should be thinking about how we're going to help them to become better I think it's just an ugly and gross uh thing that we do so I do think that there's there is good out there and you just have to try and uh find it well that's a lovely place to end it Tim thank you so much for joining me on this podcast um this is my first phone interview my first interview talking to someone in prison um and it's been a pleasure and just thank you for doing what you do to just help people try to help people okay well yeah thank you for taking the time and uh helping me hopefully reach a few more [Applause] people

Thanks again to Tim Spock for being such an open book. And I also want to thank Tim’s friend Dennis, who helps him communicate with the outside world and supports Tim’s efforts to be a better person and do what he can to give back.

If you want to write to Tim, both the snail mail and email addresses are in the show notes, I am positive he would love to get more mail, and as he mentioned he’d love to help anyone in any way he can who is struggling with alcoholism. So if you want someone to talk to who won’t judge you, consider writing him a letter or emailing him. Something I found out kinda recently from my dad, who has been sober for over 25 years, is that it’s frowned upon to mention 12 step programs that are meant to be anonymous by name in the press or media. And I guess this podcast qualifies as media, so real talk: if you want a recommendation for a program that has been designed for the friends and family of alcoholics, reach out to me and I’ll happily share that information privately. Same if you’re looking for a program to focus on yourself. You can also read Tim’s zines, available from Microcosm Publishing, or check out the couple other resources I put in the show notes. You have choices, you have options, you have support, you are not alone. Good luck.

You can support this podcast by liking my youtube channel, and sharing, subscribing, and reviewing But Her Lyrics.. Wherever you get your podcasts - it’s free and it helps. To find episode transcripts, or to find out more about what I do, my book, my trainings, my patreon, head to shawnapotter.com

To learn about all things WOW, head to linktr.ee/waronwomen

Thanks for listening!